INTERVIEW WITH LEE HWA BENG
By: R. Nadeswaran and Terence Fernandez (The Sun, Fri 22 Jul 2005)
LONG before being the three-term Subang Jaya assemblyman, Dato' LEE HWA BENG was a Petaling Jaya municipal councillor. With the setting up of the Subang Jaya Municipal Council, he was "transferred". Having spent more than 15 years on local councils, he believes that the ideal local government would be one that is elected by and accountable to the people. An accountant by training, Lee has never been known to mince his words. He has spoken out on several issues affecting Subang Jaya residents, and has had running battles with officialdom and fellow politicians. Lee has an advantage - a distinct one. Because he wears two hats - councillor and state assemblyman, he is able to take the people's problems further. But there are minus points when it comes to testing the limits. Parties with vested interests tend to view that kind of conduct as adversarial, but Lee has plodded along. He has thrown his hat into the ring for a post in MCA's central working committee and believes that by moving up the political ladder, he will have the clout to improve his service to the community. In a candid and no-holds barred interview recently, YB Lee tells R. NADESWARAN and TERENCE FERNANDEZ why he is counting on local council elections and why he is not counting on this basic tenet of a democratic society to see any changes in the near future.
theSun: What is the biggest weakness in local councils?
Lee: The biggest would be (lack of) accountability and transparency because councillors are appointed by the state government. So the YDP (council president) and the whole council will look towards the mentri besar as the boss instead of the ratepayers.
That is not the case in other countries as they acknowledge that their money (salary) comes from the taxpayers. Councillors (in these countries) are selected through elections.
In every government structure there are three tiers - the first tier is the cabinet, followed by the state government and local council.
We (councillors) are there to serve the third tier which is very important. As far as ratepayers are concerned, the third tier is the most important.
The first tier which is the cabinet and the Parliament, makes policies which do not affect their (the people's) daily lives.
The second tier, state assembly and excos also do not affect them much but it is the third tier that really affects their day-to-day living, from longkang clearing, to sampah collection, cutting grass to approval of projects for renovation and such, air quality, traffic jams ... every aspect of their daily lives are affected.
So, from what I see and experience, there is not much accountability here because bread and butter issues are still not addressed satisfactorily.
How do you see your role in this present system?
I have said this publicly before, I would love to have local elections. But since this is government policy, there is little anyone can do.
In my case, I am an elected assemblyman (who automatically becomes a local councillor), so I have to work hard (at grassroots) to ensure I get re-elected.
If I am seen as not performing, the people will not elect me again. Every five years I become a candidate and the people judge my contributions.
So, that's how I play my role. I make sure my constituents are served.
When I sit in the local council, there's no conflict of interests because as a state assemblyman, my job is to care for the constituents. So, as a councillor, I am more effective as I am only answerable to the voters.
But those who are political or state appointees have the luxury of not doing anything but still can expect to be reappointed to their posts.
In the current system, if you are a councillor, you are still answerable to your political masters, so how can you say there is no conflict of interest?
Yes. But in my case, my political masters would want me to do my work diligently.
I am not talking about the YDP. If there are any problems in the council, I will see my political masters and complain, because the performance of the local authority will affect my work.
How effective have you been in speaking up for ratepayers during council meetings?
For the first three years, I was not an elected state assemblyman. So, I was not so effective because they (the Subang Jaya Municipal Council) didn't bother about my views and opinions. In those days, I stood up on so many issues, but they just ignored me.
But once I got elected, their attitude changed. They knew that as a state assemblyman, I have access to people at the top and that a lot of things I proposed can be implemented.
But it does not happen all the time because interested parties interfered in certain projects.
It is the same everywhere. Even in PJ (when he was a councillor in the mid-80s) , I fought for so many things, but they just couldn't care.
Why no conflict? Because when I talk as a councillor, I view myself as an elected representative. I use my councillor's post to help my constituents.
So this is the impression I give the council president and my bosses at state and federal levels. I view this post as elected - the
residents are my voters, so I must help them.
Does this mean you must have access to the powers-that-be, to the political masters to be an effective councillor?
Of course! Have to!
In Subang Jaya, you have three assemblymen who are councillors. So the other 20 cannot move?
Of course they move.
But not at the same pace?
Not at the same pace. But sometimes we don't want to run to our political masters at the state or at the federal level. Sometimes the council president and officers, knowing we are elected and have access to the top, listen to us.
But even if the councillor is not elected, the people will judge us anyway on our performance in the local authority. The people who voted for me will judge me on my performance as a councillor. I am aware of this.
But how will people judge unelected councillors? You said the third tier is the most important. The councillors are invisible. Maybe Subang Jaya residents are lucky they have you. But other places, the ratepayers are suffering.
Most of the councillors are not elected. I think for councillors who are not state assemblymen, it will be difficult for members of the public to tell them to work. First thing, you don't know how to call them. Number Two, it is difficult to call them and get them to do work.
On what basis are these councillors then elected to their posts?
There are some technical problems. The (composition) of a council has political undertones. Councillors are appointed based on the areas they are from. So, who should you call? You have councillors who say: "I am not responsible for happenings in my area. I am responsible to my political party".
So, don't you think these councillors should be given areas to take care of? Would this help solve the problem?
We have. The mentri besar came up with this policy a few years ago, where every councillor is given an area.
But it has not been implemented?
It has been implemented ... but not effectively. In Subang Jaya, it is quite effective. There are five areas with a councillor in charge and we have a very active meeting with the residents. It is not easy work.
Because all councillors do not belong to the same party, so I cannot order them to do work.
If they are MCA councillors, I can tell them, but if they are from another party, I can't do anything if they don't want to do work.
So there is inter-party rivalry within the councils?
Not rivalry, but sort of, inter-party ... working together.
They don't work together?
It (co-operation) is there. We are part of Barisan Nasional. I have no direct say over them. I cannot tell them what to do ... other than MCA of course. Say for instance, if the state assemblyman is from Umno, he also cannot tell the MCA councillor in his area what to do.
So, there is this problem. But of course, we refer major problems to the top to be solved.
Is it true that our councillors are timid?
Yes. Many don't speak up because they do not feel they are representing anyone but their political masters. This is not just BN. Even in Kelantan and Terengganu when it was under PAS, the councillors don't speak up.
When they are outspoken, naturally, they will hit the YDP or state government.
You councillors have a problem. You don't have a choice of YDP who is appointed by the federal government. Whether he works with you or not, you won't know until he comes in. Then you find out you can't work with him, you have a major problem. Do you think councillors should vet the incoming presidents?
Yes, we would like to, but we won't be given this power. But even vetting is not a sure process. Sometimes when you interview a new person, you won't know if that person is good or not. Like choosing a wife also. First time is good, but after marriage, end up lousy like mad!
What about track record?
We won't know. Of course track record may look nice, but like I said, after marriage all the lousy things will come up. It is not a
fool-proof system.
The common talk is that councillors are there to get contracts. How far is this true?
Not too many cases, but there are some councillors who happen to be contractors or have contractor friends. But if they have a share in a company that applies for a government job, they have to declare their interests. If they don't declare their interests, the ACA will go after them, and rightly so.
There have been cases of councillors being charged with conflict of interests, helping themselves or their friends.
All these have come about because there is no open tender system, then?
The existing system requires tenders to be called for projects exceeding RM200,000.
But do you agree that what is happening now is that a big job is sub-divided so you don't have to call for open tender?
The mentri besar has said this very clearly that such manipulation cannot be tolerated. Not only from an administrative point but also the ACA. This is definitely subject to investigations.
Coming to an issue that is close to your heart - the SJK(C) Damansara. The school was moved from Damansara to Tropicana on the basis that it is too close to the highway. Now the land is going to be converted and acquired for high-rise buildings. You are part of the Selangor government. Are you going to allow this to happen?
I think the shifting of the school is good but there has been some misunderstanding, especially with the people of Kampung Baru Damansara Dalam.
Now, I am told that MPPJ (Petaling Jaya Municipal Council) is amending the draft plan, to re-zone the school land as a high-density residential area.
To my knowledge, there is no proposal to the MPPJ or state government or activity on the school land, to suggest that they are going ahead with any (housing) project.
If there is, I will not be among those who agree with it.
Personally I am against any proposal to develop the school land. If the education department does not have the money to have a school there, they should not develop it. It will become a big issue ... other things will crop up. Definitely school land should not and cannot be used for housing development.
So ideally, what should the school land be used for?
Ideally, another Chinese school must be built. Because the school in Tropicana caters to families staying in the Tropicana area, such as Kayu Ara and Bandar Utama. What about children in Section 17, Section 15, Damansara Utama, where do they go now? So, there is a need for a Chinese school there.
I will consult MCA party leaders, but on this issue, the powers at the top must make a decision.
From Day One, those who protested against the shifting of the school had voiced fears that the land will be developed into residential complexes.
I am not aware of this.
Well, that is what these parents had claimed but the state government had repeatedly said "no, we are moving the school for safety reasons". Today, we see that the protesters' claims were true after all.
It is not easy to develop (the land). Right now, if they want to acquire and alienate the land to somebody, they need the Education Ministry's approval.
And if MPPJ follows the Town and Country Planning Act, it must go for public hearing. Right now, the Draft Master Plan is subject to public opinion, but the public has already objected to any development on the school land.
Honestly, does public opinion ever matter? Even if the majority of residents oppose a project, MPPJ has a reputation of going ahead with it.
I don't know about PJ. But in Subang Jaya this is not how it is.
In the case of plans to develop the USJ 8 police station grounds into a food court, which was met with protests, can you give us details of the meeting. Can you tell us how democracy works at your level?
Overseas, any issue that affects the public, all interested parties are invited to a public hearing so that all views can be considered before making a decision.
There were proposals to build a food court in USJ 8, a hawker centre in USJ 11 and USJ 15, even a high-rise condominium.
I made it a point that MPSJ conducted a meeting with the public. Objections were very strong and the project was shelved - we always listen to the public.
But in the case of USJ 8, first time around, nobody was consulted and the development order was already given and construction started. So this thing about public consultation does not gel!
I agree. I did not attend the meeting where it was decided that the project was approved. Subsequently, on learning about it, I insisted on public consultation, and the YDP obliged. So, since the public did not like the idea, the mentri besar listened and decided to shelve the project.
In calling for the public hearing, did you get any support from the other councillors or was it a one-man show?
There were a few councillors who supported me.
But not the majority?
I did not consult everybody. I received support from within the Subang Jaya political boundaries.
Was there any political pressure to go ahead with the food court?
No political pressure, but there was pressure in the sense that MPSJ had approved the project, MPSJ had given the green light to commence work. Because of this, the operator had incurred costs. So that's where the pressure was.
So, is MPSJ going to compensate the operator?
No. We cannot use public money. They claim they have spent half-a-million ringgit to buy things such as utensils.
Do you agree that state assemblymen play the roles of member of parliament and councillor as well?
There is no conflict between state assemblymen and councillors because these roles complement each other. A member of parliament is supposed to be a spokesman for the whole area on national issues and policies. They don't get involved in all the small issues.
But they do take credit for the assemblyman's work?
Have to, because have to complement each other. The state assemblyman also has to be a spokesman on national issues in his area. So, there is a lot of overlapping. The public does not understand, We also don't understand. So, it is very confusing.
We should evolve to a stage where the member of parliament knows his role and the state assemblyman also knows his role. But the public shouldn't go to a member of parliament for a longkang problem. That's why you need a councillor in every area.
As a state assemblyman, it is hard for me to get to know everybody's problem, but if we have 24 elected councillors in every area, people will be better served.
No need five-year election for these councillors. Maximum two years, or like in some countries, three years. If they don't like the councillor, they can kick him out. Easy only.
How rampant is corruption in the lower levels of councils?
I think, as Pak Lah says, corruption in front line agencies including local authorities, is there. But how rampant? No study has been done.
What about feedback from your constituents?
It is there. But in MPSJ, the ACA regularly comes to investigate complaints. We have removed some officers, including heads of department, on suspicion of corruption. Sometimes, corruption is not easy to prove, but on suspicion, we have to remove some of them.
In line with the prime minister's call for transparency, what if any, has MPSJ done in to embrace his clarion call. For instance, are the list of tenders published at the council office, or even on your website?
We support his call for clean government, of course.
So what is stopping you from implementing this?
Because a lot of things are still under OSA (Official Secrets Act). I cannot ... I cannot ... I am not allowed to disclose certain things but if there is a directive from the top, then I will be happy to do it.
But tenders are not subject to OSA, are they?
They are because every working paper we receive we have to keep secret. We also cannot announce the successful tenderer.
These are the tenders, these are the prices. We chose this contractor because of these reasons. What's so difficult about it?
I understand. Because we don't announce, people suspect us.
So all the more reason for you to announce it.
This is a decision to be taken at a higher level.
What would be your idea of an ideal local government?
The councillors must be elected and there must be zones or wards in each area as practised in many countries.
What about the system of governance?
The present set-up is there. Only there is no local elections. If there are elections, the system will work. My other fear is autonomy of local authority is not there. Because the councillors are appointed by the state government, including the president, a lot of things must be referred to the state government, so the autonomy is not there.
The autonomy of the local authority has been compromised. In the long term, it is not good for the area and the residents.
So how do you overcome this?
Local council elections. No other way. Of course my views may be in conflict to those of my political masters but, this would be the ideal system.
But there are other arguments as to why you should not have local elections.
Firstly, it is racial because BN will be worried as all the local authorities in the urban areas will see many non-Malays being elected and in rural areas, Malays will be elected. This is not good for nation-building. These are just my views.
What about this alternative - 24 elected councillors and 24 appointed?
We have to come up with a hybrid. Other than in certain urban areas, the rest of the country, including people in big towns are not matured and ready for local council elections.
But it worked before.
I think it can still work, but generally, the Malaysian public must be bold enough to voice their satisfaction or dissatisfaction through the ballot box and must be willing to accept the outcome, wether win or lose. This is called political maturity.
Basically, you are saying you deserve the government you get?
Yes. After bungkus, then who do they (ratepayers) scold? Scold themselves.
You are one of the longest-serving councillors and are a three-term assemblyman. Yet, you don't seem to go up the political ladder. Are you content at remaining an assemblyman?
I am not a very ambitious guy, but on the other hand, if you want to serve the public, the higher posts you hold in the government, the better. You become more effective.
This is my frustration: I see certain people in higher government posts than me, who cannot perform. In the meantime, I just concentrate on Subang Jaya, where I can deliver and don't care what else happens.
But anywhere you go, you will be able to work and deliver with the same amount of dedication, right?
Definitely, but these appointments are not based on merit. They are based on other factors. It is not that if you are good, you will be appointed. There are other criteria involved.
So you don't think you will go any higher?
I don't know. Anything can happen. Of course I would like to be appointed to a higher government post so I can be more effective. Being a three-term assemblyman and being so long in the political arena, I would like to go higher.
Is this why you are going for a Central Committee (CC) post in the upcoming MCA elections?
As I said earlier, the higher post you get, the better. I want to be a more effective community leader. Anyway, there are a lot of vacancies. Most of the current CC members are from the (former MCA president Tun Dr) Ling Liong Sik era. So a lot are resigning or not seeking re-election and for many, age is catching up.
I have the backing of my division but this is not good enough. I need Selangor to back me, and also the other states. But this year, there is no menu list given by the president, no party struggle at the top level, where it is ever man for himself. No team. So this is the main reason why I want to contest, because if you win, it is because of merit, not because somebody supports you.
What is the controversy about you asking the Sekinchan DAP assemblyman Ng Suee Lin to pay for the aborted trip to Egypt?
I think it is wrong for the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) to spend public funds for an aborted trip to Cairo. So when we cancelled the trip, the mentri besar asked us to pay for the cancellation fees, I agreed.
But this Sekinchan fellow, all the while, he agreed to the trip. Even when the offer letter was given to us, asking us to give our passports, he was the first to provide his passport.
All the time you knew there would be belly dancing and a Nile cruise?
At the second meeting, brochures were given to us by the tour operator. Belly dancing was on the itinerary. That means he (Ng) was aware. And he gave his passport, that means he consented to go. Four days before the tour, he cancelled. So we had to pay cancellation fees. That's why I was very angry. That fellow looks like a hero.
On two occasions at the PAC, we agreed to go but he did not say a word.
We cannot ask the government to pay. Two wrongs don't make a right.
But Dato', why did you choose Egypt?
Yes, even the DAP brought up the issue. They asked why are we going to a non-Commonwealth country. I said that those in Commonwealth countries should study defects in democracy in a non-Commonwealth country.
But where does democracy exist in Egypt?
Hah! Then you must learn why (in Malaysia) it exists. Look at India. I went to India with some PAS MPs and we were shocked to learn that India has the most pure form of democracy. Democracy is the most important thing in any country.
